I have been known to enjoy, and employ, a musical reference, on the odd occasion, and since I’m listening to Say Hi at the moment, I thought I’d go with it, yet again.
We talk about so much utter crap in this industry, and I’ve recently stated that I hate adding to the noise when I have nothing relevant to say. Don’t get your hopes up and think that I have anything relevant to say just because I’m writing now, of course, but I do think it’s quite interesting how we’re saying so much about NOTHING, but we’re not saying anything about what those of us with a bit of sense can do to stop all the massive levels of antagonism that are directed at almost anyone, with any opinion, in this field. Now I will be the first to admit that I do quite love a bit of controversy, especially when black hat SEO is involved, and I respect passion, no matter where it’s directed, but why is it that we feel the need to label another human being according to how he or she runs a business aspect of his or her life? That’s asinine.
“I’ve never before seen so much outward nastiness and I went to a private girls’ school until I was 13.” Jane “Kinky Pants” Copland
These camps that people have established themselves as members of are seriously freaking me out. What happened to being objective, being able to look at a situation and potentially judge it for the actions undertaken without calling the person performing those actions horrible names or likening them to Nazis or KKK members? Why must we judge people by how they do their jobs?
I’m a vegetarian, so go ahead and roll your eyes and gag thinking of tofu, lovely tofu, nom nom nom (Ms. Copland, I’m thinking of you.) When you’re done, think about this: a hunter who kills a deer and feeds his family with it is doing something that I don’t do. He’s killing an animal, and he’s eating it, and that goes against how I live and how I eat. However, I don’t HATE this person. I don’t even think he’s wrong, or bad, or anything like that…I just think he’s made a choice, or been forced into a choice, that I would not make given my current leanings and situation. However, if I were starving and had to kill a deer to eat it and survive, I’d do it wouldn’t I? After all those viewings of Bambi Meets Godzilla, you’re damned right I would.
What if I simply decided to start eating meat again? Would that make me a bad person? Let’s go back to the lovely Jane Copland, an avid meat-eater who enjoys telling me about her carnivorous activities. She and I have different eating habits…you have to eat to survive, of course, just like most people have to work to survive. We have vastly different viewpoints about what we should eat but you don’t see the two of us attacking each other online over it. Yet. That’s obviously a piece of steak cleverly disguised as a kiwi…in case you’re fooled by her innocent look.
And god forbid we get into religion (HA) or politics here, but do you actually dislike someone who has different beliefs than you do? Since I only enjoy outing people like Jane, I won’t out anyone for being a Republican but I will tell you, with complete honesty, that even though I am a rabidly liberal person who wouldn’t have voted for Joe Strummer on the Republican ticket, I don’t hate anyone who is planning to vote for someone other than Obama. That’s because I happen to be a somewhat well-adjusted individual who simply doesn’t care when other people have a differing viewpoint. I think it’s quite lovely that not everyone I know agrees with me on everything. Otherwise, who would I make fun of?
“I didn’t understand it before, but now I do: Twitter is partially to blame. It’s the high school hallway to Sphinn’s cafeteria.” Jane “Prom Queen” Copland
Is it something like a Michael Moore syndrome that’s making some of you get online, write all kinds of nasty nonsense, and get someone else’s attention for your vitriol instead of your abilities? If you’re a chemist reading this, I apologize, as I am not trying to make fun of your copper sulfate. Being extreme is fine, and it’s necessary in cases like drawing the world’s attention to genocide, for example, but SEO? As long as I have been doing SEO, the angriest I’ve ever been was when my minimum cost per click went from $0.15 to $0.17, and let me assure you that it didn’t make me get on Sphinn and start referring to people as the spawn of Satan.
“When someone mentions ethics and seo in a sentence, I am reminded of a passage in Catch 22, where you can only eat after you salute the flag. Why is that?” Lyndon “Geared Up” Antcliff, quoted from Lisa Barone’s ethics piece
As I’ve said, passion IS needed, all over, but it needs to be tempered a bit. Someone doing a bit of link bait that you think misled someone…god help you if that’s your biggest problem. I WISH I had the luxury of getting upset by things like that. Meanwhile, I can’t always get a cranberry orange scone at Starbucks. Sometimes I have to get a freaking muffin. I’ll save my hateful thoughts for those days.
If someone is going to write something that bad, I think people should have to work at it to get at that bile so I’ve removed the easy URL and left the words.
*I* did that, my change to the URL for the original comment from Doug – BLAME ME.
Brilliantly done?
Wrote a fake story.
Submitted it as “news” to everywhere he could.
Put in on a financial news site that was otherwise a trusted source of financial banking information.
Made it out to be a REAL story to the world and to the visitors of that financial site.
Did all of this in order to trick and deceive the general public, the seo industy for links, the news outlets for links, and did so in order to gain more link juice from Google.
OK; you say brilliant? I say criminal. period.
This shows me how much of the young people today were brought up. Brought up in schools. Brought up by parents. Not having any experience in real world business at all. If they did; there is totally no way you would think of that as “brilliant” by any stretch of anyone’s common sense.
My goodness.
“It’s just seo”.
SEO IS a business. There are business ethics involved with EVERY damn industry in the world. Get some please.
I’m done with this conversation. I have a daughter your age, and I can tell you for a fact that she would not have the same mindset for any type of business. If she did, she knows she would also get a spanking,…. just like the one you and others need as well.
The world is going to “H” in a hand basket.
So criminal. I’m going to call the police.
“Hello, Seattle PD? Someone wrote a fake story on the Internet. Hello? Hello?”
I have a mother your age, and I can tell you for a fact that she would regard you as an old cranky pants.
There’s a whole heap of shite being flung here and despite not wanting to c*ntribute to it I am entirely unable to let this go:
“I’m done with this conversation. I have a daughter your age, and I can tell you for a fact that she would not have the same mindset for any type of business. If she did, she knows she would also get a spanking,…. just like the one you and others need as well.”
A fake story is illegal, but you are perfectly happy to state for the world to read that you’d spank your grown-up daughter???
hmmm… I see some value to this topic, but I also think that as an industry we need to be very careful where we tread. Simply saying it’s OK to do something because the end justifies the means is neither ethical nor considering the long-term consequences of such behavior. Both traditional and web based advertising have to – by law – adhere to rules laid out by the FTC http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/ruleroad.shtm
Sure, SEO is only a part of search marketing, and SMM is a related field. Practitioners envisaging long term business gains and brand recognition in either field should take a step back and consider whether their actions will stand the test of time.
I’m no way judging people for how they conduct their business, or how they practice SEO, but I might not recommend them to a friend or business partner needing SEO services if I found their means to be wanting in terms of what is generally considered to be acceptable, responsible, ethical business practice.
Doug, I understand your frustration here, but I think you may have gone off on a bit of a tangent
Andrew; I think people knew what I meant real well. I think it’s highly unethical business practices to think that’s it’s quite OK and even brilliant if a person puts out fake stories for the perceived gain they will receive from it.
Well said Laura. Oh yeah, I get frustrated for sure, but you know what people with some kind of common sense and logic are dealing with in this industry right now.
Make no mistake; what the learningseobasics blog said was not right by me for sure. I do not condone that type of name calling whatsoever. I do however know what she is saying and agree with that part of it. I don’t agree with how she made her case at all. You won’t see me call people those types of names, but I will call you a blackhat lover and a person who condones search engine spam if that is exactly what you are. I know a few in this blog are exactly that. No mistake from me about that at all. Anyone who does not know the law and who does not know the very simplest of business ethics needs to go back to school to learn them, or get a real job at a brick and mortar business to find them out for yourselves.
Being called a blackhat lover is fine with me…some of the most brilliant people that I know in this field are of the darker persuasion.
That being said, my having no issues with how they do SEO and my having no problem doing something a bit dark for a client who’s asked for it (and been told about the risks–so please don’t assume that just because someone does STOOP to doing blackhat, they have not warned the client of the risk because in most cases, that simply isn’t true) does not mean that I have zero ethics period. I simply view what I do for a living as a way to make a living.
There is a common belief that anything blackhat is spam. I wouldn’t go far enough to say that I condone spam…I don’t produce it, I am forced to tolerate it, and overall, it doesn’t really get me too upset because it’s easy enough to wade through isn’t it? So calling me a person who condones search engine spam may not be all that correct. I am a person who simply doesn’t go into a proper fit when confronted with it.
Lastly, I do have business ethics. They just happen to be different from yours. It’s a semantic argument, and anything to do with ethics always is. We say a lot of silly things on this blog, to keep the humor and the lightness there, and some of us are younger than others (and I’m not one of those) but don’t make the mistake of thinking that anyone who writes on this site is someone to be talked down to, or treated in a condescending manner. We do have business sense, and we all have quite respectable jobs doing this for a living, so don’t assume that you’re dealing with a bunch of little girls here.
You can, and do, disagree with us but seriously, stop talking about how I need a spanking. I may, but rest assured that you aren’t the man who’s gonna do it.
Thank you for being civil and having this discussion.
I never said that search engine spam or blackhat seo was ok as long as the client was informed of the risks. What makes you think that is perfectly ok? It’s not. I think you may believe that informing or risks makes things dandy, and that you are only hurting yourself and your client if you get caught. Not true. How about those sites who are competitors and play by the rules of the se’s, and who do not cheat them? It’s OK if you cheat them though, right? How’s that stack up? It’s OK as long as you inform the client?
It’s not OK on so many levels Julie. Not at all.
You say you may not condone blackhat/spam, but yet you stated in your article post that you would spam on behalf of your client, right? I’m not getting that, sorry.
Your blog has rules in here, correct? If someone doesn’t follow ‘your’ rules, what happens? If someone does not follow my rules on my forums, what happens? Is it ethical for someone to continue to spam my forums even though they are warned about my rules and simply disregard them anyway? Is it ethical to come to my house and trash the place even though I told you not to?
If that answer is no; why is it that many feel that a search engine’s rules are there to be broken? What is the mindset that thinks it’s great to be a blackhat and get praise and cheer for being one, when that same person does not want unwanted spam in their very own blogs? I guess it must be a site origin thing or something. It’s like well; it’s ok to spam certain sites but not ok to spam my site, or some other site? Where is that line drawn BTW? I’d love to find out where that ethical line is in order to go ahead and spam the crap out of the sites who fall on the wrong side of that line.
Doug, thank you as well for having a civil discussion.
Regarding this bit: You say you may not condone blackhat/spam, but yet you stated in your article post that you would spam on behalf of your client, right? I’m not getting that, sorry.
Well, no, I don’t do spam but that’s where our definitions of spam probably differ. I’d do blackhat on behalf of a client, if asked, if I thought it was warranted. I don’t, always, actually, and I’ve said no many times in cases like that. Spam, to me, is useless crap. Manipulating the engines in order to move my client up a bit is not creating spam, to me.
Whether it’s ethical or ok or whatever, my point is that if my client pays me to do something and it will get the results they’re after, in many cases, I’d do it. There are, of course, cases where even a horrible person like myself will say no.
I don’t think a search engine’s rules are there to be broken. I just might happen to break them, knowing the consequences.
Yes Julie; you and I differ greatly as to what is spam. There are two types of spam. One is email spam, which is well, email spam. Another is search engine spam, or blackhat stuff. I gather from you there must be levels of blackhat that draws some kind of line. If it’s over that line; it’s spam. If it’s under that line, it’s not spam and just called blackhat. Interesting take on things. I must say I’ve never heard of that kind of definition in this industry for eleven years now, and I thought I had heard it all.
So in summary; you believe that is it’s ok in certain situations and circumstances to implement Blackhat stuff on behalf of the client as long as you inform that client of the risks involved. Further; you don’t give any regard whatsoever to certain websites, such as search engines where you and your client wish to achieve free search engine listings in, and will do whatever it takes to get there. Further; you don’t give any regard to all the competitor sites your client may have in his/her market, and who may be actually playing by the rules set forth by that certain website/search engine. You don’t care about them at all as long as you and your client feel good about things, and want to make money. Making money for you and your client is the top priority, and you or your client does not care how you get there, nor do you care which competitor you beat out in the top ten because you implemented blackhat and the other site played by the rules.
I got it Julie. Thanks for the discussion.
Black hat, White hat, SHITE HAT.
The whole “Lyndongate” nonsense is just that, nonsense.
Ultimately it is entertainment. In the same way that IrnBru has entertained with their advertisements over the decades (google “irn bru ads” to see what I mean for the non UK/ Scottish amongst us) it is entertainment at the same time as being advertising… If people are entertained and amused by it the brand profits from it, end of discussion.
The in-fighting smacks of jealousy in lieu of respect.
SEO = Fake news story, AKA lies in its non euthenism form?
The SEO industry has already given itself a black-eye over the Years, Lyndon’s stunt simply broke the nose and blackened the other eye while HE made some money. That’s “brilliant marketing”?
Trust me, spreading lies as the truth is NOT “brilliant marketing”.
ALL SEO SHOULD be within the SE guidelines so we ALL have a level playing field. Most Webmasters are online to make money AKA a wage. Those who cheat are cheating money from those who should be on page 1 based on the merit of their content (dirty word for blackhats, I know) as defined by the SE.
Would YOU play cards for money with a blackhat?
Would YOU think it OK if your child didn’t make the cut due to some cheating on a final exam.
So, as long as the “professial” (cough) informs of the risks, anything goes? Hmm, sure sounds like a slippery slope to nowhere to me.
I’ve never been asked to use any blackhat techniques in an industry where everyone in the top 10 was not doing the same. That, to be, is fair game, and a level playing field.
Yes it is about money. Not being the recipient of a lovely inheritance, I work to make money. Again, just because I have no issues with blackhat techniques does not mean that I go through life spamming the engines and running over old people in crosswalks. Honestly, being lectured on ethics by a man who longs for the days of corporal punishment and wants to give his grown daughter a nice beating…well, that’s just the slightest bit ironic.
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I now have chickens to sacrifice.
Damn it I have typos in my comment!!
Chickens!!!
Julie you silly bird, you’re a moderator. Log in to Wordpress and edit them!
Right, I’m off to pray to Satan.
Julie,
We don’t know each other, but I agree with you on this post.
All negativity begets is more negativity.
This industry needs to behave like an industry. Stop with the high school drama nonsense, and pretend we are educated grown ups.
We have a group of people here that float from blog to blog, never really leading any thoughts, never really adding anything to the conversation, and strangely enough never talking about SEO or Internet marketing.
They just bring people down.
They just spend their time polluting social media, while talking about how polluted social media is.
I never really understood people that simply wanted their viewpoint to be the only viewpoint. Or their methodology to be the only methodology.
The only answer I have is fear. Either that or incompetence.
Again Julie good post, and Jane good use of “cranky pants”
Dave
RE: “I’ve never been asked to use any blackhat techniques in an industry where everyone in the top 10 was not doing the same.”
“everyone”? I doubt that. So you are sheep, just like all the blackhats.
RE: “Again, just because I have no issues with blackhat techniques does not mean that I go through life spamming the engines”
You just admitted to “spamming the engines” now you are denying it.
Tell you what, Julie, when you have figured how to use WordPress, you can start a REAL “SEO” business. LOL!
I really do need to learn to use WordPress properly…
Likening blackhats to sheep? That is truly a strange point to attempt to make.
If I need to spam the engines, I will. Period. I don’t do that currently…I HAVE done it, I will most likely do it again, but as I said, it’s not part of my daily routine. Extrapolate (look it up) that all you want to.
Dave, when you figure out how to say something that you think is funny without including “LOL!” well, maybe you can make a comment that I’ll take seriously.
@Dave Snyder: thank you. I owe you a latte. Jane’s use of “cranky pants” was truly inspired. In fact, I’ve asked her to marrry me. Wait, no…
Julie, if you really think that stooping to the level of blackhats, even if they own top 20, is ok, then I’d rather recommend you learn some insight from Ammon Johns on the topic. Some quotes:
“You obviously dislike the way they have gone about getting content on to their homepage. What have you done to beat it with a more elegant and useable modern method?
Getting yourself into a state about the spamminess is the tactic they may well be relying on. It seems to be preventing you doing your job, which is to beat them. Not at their apparrent own game, but at SEM. One expects sites like this to confuse the clients. Poor clients tend to say “well that’s working, so we should do that too”. That’s precisely what the other competitors of theirs probably did, which is why the other spammy sites aren’t there to see.”
Yura, and everyone else…
Again, just because I would use blackhat techniques when warranted does not mean that I need to learn any insight from anyone on whitehat techniques. Trust me, I know those well. I just don’t happen to have a rabidly puritanical attitude about marketing.
When I was head of search at a previous agency, I recommended and oversaw the transition of every single client we had (which was around 40) into purely whitehat campaigns. I’d inherited most of them from someone else, and they were cloaked. Some did better than before, some got completely sacked, and some had very little notable change.
It is a huge mistake to assume that anyone who does or condones blackhat techniques is someone who must know no other method. It’s also a mistake to label any site using blackhat as a spammy site.
Oh my God, SEO Chicks may cross the 100-comment threshold with this.
I invite you all to calm down a bit, aside from Julie, who has indeed kept her cool and could be forgiven if she didn’t as she is a redhead. A fake one at that, but who am I to judge? This hue of blond is straight out of a bottle. The REST of you need to calm down and see past your own piousness. I suggest a good lay. Okay that WAS childish, but it really can help.
In a more serious vein, it would be healthy for us to remember that search engine guidelines are search engine guidelines and that they belong to–ahem–search engines. It isn’t a heart-palpitation-inducing moral issue, and this comes from a white hat who works for a white hat company that practices and recommends white hat SEO. I’m now going to do what really makes me a decent human being and go walk my dog.
Jane, you nasty troll, saying mean things about me like that, and publicly no less…
I’m going to be a decent human being and eat my orange scone that I actually bought to give to someone else, then changed my mind when I saw that it had frosting on it.
Oh well THAT is evil. See that, people? Have at her now, the dirty scone thief.
Look.
I have to call a stop to this.
All this talk of chicken sacrificing and satan worshipping…
You’re giving away the secrets of top rankings and not charging the usual $500,000 fee. That pyramid scheme I so carefully built is going to be RUINED!
Therefore, before the entire SEO world goes broke because you’re giving away *all* the secrets, I suggest we stop this comment storm right here
[...] 5th Birthday Party, held at the Absolut Ice Bar, in central London. I took my good friend Decabbit along, you’ll see her in my flickr [...]
RE: “Again, just because I would use blackhat techniques when warranted does not mean that I need to learn any insight from anyone on whitehat techniques. Trust me, I know those well. I just don’t happen to have a rabidly puritanical attitude about marketing.”
“when warranted” = money is offered.
“rabidly puritanical attitude” = those who don’t NEED to lie, cheat and steal when marketing.
RE: “Likening blackhats to sheep?”
Yep, just tell all you buddies that a new directory has PR 7 or above and watch them flock
RE: “It is a huge mistake to assume that anyone who does or condones blackhat techniques is someone who must know no other method. It’s also a mistake to label any site using blackhat as a spammy site.”
1st statement is partly true, but ANY SEO “professional” who “condones blackhat techniques” is a SEO “professional” who the industry would be better off without.
2nd statement is totally false. SE decides and label sites that use spammy ways as “a spammy site”.
RE: “Dave, when you figure out how to say something that you think is funny without including “LOL!” well, maybe you can make a comment that I’ll take seriously.”
Sorry, no prize for 2nd, kiss my arse and run 3rd
As Judith has closed this thread and asked me not to continue engaging in this argument, I’d like to say thanks for your comments Dave but I am done responding.
In closing, I’d like to say that I particularly enjoy your use of smiley faces. Not one, but two!!
I shall be done with this right after I tell Dave to drink a nice tall glass of chill the fuck out.
RE: “nice tall glass of chill the fuck out”
Sounds like someone should take their own advice.
Never did I say that you no other method, than white hat.
The Ammon’s post that I linked to refers to viewing the bigger picture and persisting in using white hat techniques, when your competition is using black hat ones, which is contrary to what you have been saying, really.